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_    Unfortunately, I think the Republican Party at large lacks the ability for empathy. This was evident during the first of two SC debates when the crowd was heard booing Dr. Paul when he suggested applying the golden rule to our foreign policy. Is this idea so radical? Are we not a Christian Nation founded on Christianity's principles? What the hell is going on in this country? Why are we in such a rush to go to war? These are questions that Americans would benefit from answering for themselves.

_You will hear the standard line that "war is hell." What does that mean? What is war? By definition, war is invading an enemy territory, destroying infrastructure, imposing your will, obliterating enemies, and claiming the conquered lands. What the United States has been involved in since the Korean Conflict is not war. What is so hellish about building bridges, schools, municipal buildings, roads, and cultural centers? These activities are errands of an empire. We as conservatives have been duped into supporting empire because it is the "pro-military" stance. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If the regular American citizen understood what war is and how soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines are trained and prepared for war they would understand that counter insurgency and nation building do not fit into the mold of war. These activities fit into empire building. We as a Republic and one of the last bastions of hope and liberty in the world should look to other failed republics in history to gain an understanding of the dangers of empire and overstretching one's military.

No where in the definition of war will you find any of the activities listed above. War is about destruction, we should not rebuild our foes after their defeat. If Americans feel badly enough about our enemies there are plenty of charitable organizations that would willingly provide services through private means after the cessation of hostilities.
This leads us into another point on why we should be hesitant to rush to war. There should not be financial benefit for anyone from catastrophic loss of life. This is as much a commentary on U.S. companies in war-zones as it is on the Iraqi and Afghan "allies" that accepted our money during our forces' time in those areas. There are a multitude of studies that suggest widespread corruption involving our Afghan and Iraqi partners.

In short, to state the obvious, the American people continue to be deceived by the MSM, the government, and the political parties. War propaganda leads to more and more bellicose language. This language leads to the maiming and death of our most precious resource, our people. Our veterans will ultimately shoulder the burdens of these undeclared wars. Our Veteran's Affairs system is destined to be overwhelmed. The amount of wounded returning from these conflicts is astounding  and the rate of suicide among our returning vets is unfathomable.

I am a conservative, I am not anti-war, but I am also not pro-war. The only patriotic and liberty preserving stance is to be pro-defense. What does this mean?

To be pro-defense, you must acknowledge that war is dirty, messy business, and that the United States only has so many cheeks to turn. This means that there is an appropriate time and place for war. However, we must not be so willing to send our brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, husbands, and wives off to die for "U.S. interests" (Whatever that means). The U.S. must never be the aggressor, and we must never use international bodies to legitimize our involvement in armed conflict. The United States must only respond with force when force is applied by an aggressor. I would also accept U.S. intervention to stop ongoing genocide. I do not support nor will I ever support installing pro-U.S. governments in any nation, this practice has proved misguided and disastrous time and time again.

Please share your thoughts.

I advocate the immediate deployment of US Combat Troops here:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/one-mexican-state-bordering-us-was-deadlier-all-afghanistan-last-year
 


Comments

Will C.
01/23/2012 11:27pm

There are two arguments to be made here, and the greater is this: The U.S. is not an 'empire' and the use of the term to describe our current position in the world is ridiculous. Historically, 'empires' rule through actual force or the threat of force (conquest or a fear of re-conquest), compel their client states to a system of law, and gain either economic or military advantage through the exploitation of the client states natural resources, labor, or key terrain for defense. The United States cannot be considered an 'empire' because, despite our military success, we have not compelled conquered nations to any rule of law (merely 'imposed' a style of self-government), exploited their natural resources (see your previous post on oil), or seen any significant improvement to the security of our borders or our through the constant exhaustion of U.S. military personnel and equipment. In short: The U.S. is giving everything and taking nothing in the current war and the one just ended - if we're acting the 'imperial power,' we are doing a poor job.

Examples abound, with two classic, obvious examples. The British Empire established a series of colonies around the world, compelling their client states to accept British rule of law, economic policies beneficent to British merchants, and troop levies in the defense of the Merry England, all the while ruling through a series of political coups and the threat of re-conquest. The Roman Empire opened trade lanes from one end of the Mediterranean to the other, using the provinces as buffer states on the road to Rome and establishing rule through a direct garrison while requiring their provinces to submit to Roman authority. The United States has - much to the detriment of itself and the recently conquered nations of Afghanistan and Iraq - yet to engage in the type of political bloodletting, economic exploitation, or military heavy-handedness that either of these powers has. On the contrary, we've been quite benevolent (to our detriment) to both, giving billions of dollars in aid in addition to our blood and sweat for a largely ungrateful, unworthy population.

The argument can't even be legitimately made that the U.S. is "surrounding" Iran or "poking" at China for the claim of an enhanced defense - given Iran's vastly superior position in either Iraq (you-me same-same!) or Afghanistan (where a border sort of exists), and China's far more adept foreign policy when dealing with Afghanistan ('nice guys finish dead'), we're likely doing either country a favor by bleeding our military dry and allowing them to observe us or test all sorts of methods for collection and guerrilla warfare.

No, the argument can't be made that the U.S. is an empire, nor is it the most effective argument brought to bear against such military ventures. Instead, we should focus on the following:

1) Wars should be waged legitimately, through a declaration by Congress, clearly defining the limits of our involvement - namely, that "war" waged by the United States isn't a bridge-building, cash-grab venture for the conquered nation, that it is instead the full might of the U.S. military being brought to bear in neutralizing a threat through the use of overwhelming violence of action. Though Congress authorized the use of force both in Afghanistan and Iraq, we became mired in conflicts that were poorly defined, with no clear goals, and no clear mandate to execute the strategies that might bring about a decisive, quick, and ultimately less-bloody end to the issues at hand.

2) In addition, the use of force exercised unilaterally by the Executive Branch for prolonged operations without approval by Congress is in clear violation of the Constitution, establishing a hegemony that deprives the People of the checks and balances on executive power and their rights to rule by their representatives.

2) The United States' involvement in overseas military ventures only enables other developed nations to rely on us to provide an umbrella for their defense, effectively bowing out of their own obligations for self-defense while providing us no real political or economic incentive for sustaining military operations on their behalf. We are creating the exact conditions that imperil our national security, drawing us into conflicts outside our self interest, sacrificing American lives and expending American resources on wars that we should have nothing to do with in the first place. We need not do for others what they can do for themselves, especially when we have no business doing so. An oft-used phrase is that we have an 'obligation' to our 'allies abroad' - but who are our allies, really? Only the Brits have contributed anything significant in the way of combat troops to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Therefore, they are our only 'true' ally abroad - the rest we can contribute to in like measure; a platoon here, a company there, as they contributed to us. Unless, of course, American lives are sold at far less th

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Will C.
01/23/2012 11:29pm

than the lives of foreign troops.

The second point is that the U.S. is by far the most empathetic nation on the planet. One only need look to the foreign aid the United States doles out each year (1) - the most of any nation, developed or otherwise - or that our citizens donate freely - again, tops in the 'give' column - to see that the U.S. does not lack for empathy (2). While we are a nation founded upon the morale precepts of a Judeo-Christian tradition, the use of force (economic or military) against nations hostile to the United States hardly speaks to a lack of empathy. I don't advocate the force as a first-use option, but it's certainly not wise to consider it a last-resort either. Pursuing any type of 'sunshine' policy with nations hostile to the United States would merely be turning a blind eye to the cold realities of the world we live in, and any policy of 'wait and see' could turn out to be disastrous in situations where the threat is real. The parallels in history here are obvious as well (appeasement and Nazi Germany; turning a blind eye to a nuclear Iran).

As far as reducing the current and most recent wars the U.S. has found itself in to 'conflict' relevancy, that does a disservice to the men and women who have died fighting them. War is hell. These just happen to be ill planned, poorly executed, politically charged wars, without the benefit of a clear Declaration, and the political resolve it comes with, to guide them.

(1) This is only one of several articles of the same thread. Link:
http://gbk.eads.usaidallnet.gov/data/fast-facts.html

(2) Some sources break it down by total amount, others by percent of population that donate (done by poll, which may be sketchy); either way, the U.S. is tops in total amount and at or near the top in percent donating. "Through charitable giving, Americans spread the wealth" link: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/21/opinion/la-ed-charity-20111221

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Neusch
01/26/2012 4:16pm

Yeah ! What Will said.

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Diesel
01/26/2012 8:22pm

I am going to outright ignore some of this response because it is Santorum-esque rhetoric. You are better than that, try again.
The United States is a terrible practitioner of the idea of Empire.
No the United States is not an empire in the traditional, ancient sense. However, America is most definitely a modern empire. Why you ask? Simple. Over 900 military bases in 133 countries, this has nothing to do with charity and everything to do with power, coercion, and influence.
Your words: “the threat of force (conquest or a fear of re-conquest)”. A couple examples: Cuba, Iraq, Iran, and N. Korea.

“compel their client states to a system of law” What is all this “overthrowing unfriendly dictators”, “nation building”, and “promoting democracy” business? This is exactly what your phrase implies. I do not believe there is even room for a strong counter argument here.

“gain either economic or military advantage through the exploitation of the client states natural resources, labor, or key terrain for defense. “ Uummmm.....Military Advantage. Check. We control the world's oceans. No if, ands, or buts about it. We control the sea lanes for commerce, I would say that is gaining an economic and military advantage. We don't like you, you don't have free trade. Exploited their natural resources, we have sure tried and failed, why? I don't really have an answer, most likely gross incompetence. What other reason was there to invade Iraq? WMDs? Get the F out of here.

“if we're acting the 'imperial power,' we are doing a poor job.” Exactly my point. All empires through history are poorly run, because you cannot control all peoples at all times.

I agree with your three numbered points. But, I think you may have missed the point of the post, or maybe I was not as clear as I should have been. Onto the rest of the response:

“The second point is that the U.S. is by far the most empathetic nation on the planet. One only need look to the foreign aid the United States doles out each year (1) - the most of any nation, developed or otherwise - or that our citizens donate freely - again, tops in the 'give' column - to see that the U.S. does not lack for empathy (2)”

I reread the above a couple of times to make sure I understood it. I cannot believe you used foreign aid as an example of empathy. That is a horrible example. Those monies are used to buy our friends and maintain our empire. Military aid is an example of subsidizing our military-industrial complex by requiring that these foreign countries only use that aid money to buy weapons from U.S. Companies. This foreign aid also props up crap-heads in wonderful despot ruled destinations like Libya, formerly Iraq, Iran at one point, Central America, and Egypt.

I have no qualms with private donations. However, it does not prove empathy. It only proves that the United States is the most prosperous nation in the world and that its people are charitable. Most Americans do not give a damn that we invaded nations, in some cases on false pretenses killed innocent men, women, and children and then threw some money at them thinking that would be okay. That is a complete lack of empathy. That is recklessness and carelessness, most especially from my point of view with the lives of our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines. Americans think its okay for service members to die as long as we all wrap ourselves in the flag and pray every once in awhile. I call Bullshit. This has to stop, if people were forced to watch al-Jazeera more and see actual dead bodies I think they would be a little less willing to send their children off to war.

Appeasement, friendship, free trade are all slightly different. I do not endorse appeasement of any nation. I do however support friendship or equal treatment of all nations through free trade. Except maybe the Brits and the Aussies, they deserve more than any other nation, proportionally they have shouldered heavy burdens by accompanying us in battle.

Nuclear Iran matters as much as a Nuclear Pakistan or a Nuclear N. Korea. Not at all. It is silly to listen to the rhetoric on television and be scared of the evil Iranians that go bump in the night. A nuclear Iran is no threat to the United States, maybe to Israel but not to the United States. I have stated before and I will say it again. I do not care about Israel, nor do I care about Iran or any other nation for that matter. Any nation that wants to directly threaten us or attack us with substantive action not just rhetoric from their idiot leaders will be dealt with accordingly but until that time let's not get too worked up about it. It was the end of the world if N. Korea got a bomb...guess what they got one, we are still here. This new version of a crappy reality T.V. Show is playing out right in front of us again. And you and other Conservatives are taking the bait, hook, line and sinker. More men and w

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diesel
01/26/2012 8:23pm

and women will die, more families will suffer from combat related deaths and injuries and the suicides that follow when they return, because of the stupid media and the government's stupid crusade to control the supply of oil.

“As far as reducing the current and most recent wars the U.S. has found itself in to 'conflict' relevancy, that does a disservice to the men and women who have died fighting them.” I don't know how exactly to take this but I am deeply insulted. No, it is a egregious disservice to thos men and women that their leaders lacked foresight and wisdom to keep us out of these conflicts in the first place. The advice of the founders is clear. No entangling alliances. The U.N. and NATO have cost thousands of deaths of America service men and women for no reason whatsoever. Communism still exists on the Korean Peninsula, Vietnam fell to the Communists (only to embrace the free market after they were exposed to free trade), Iran despite our best efforts in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and unsuccessful proxy war in the 80s is ruled by religious hardliners today. How would a free market approach to these countries not turn out positive in the end they would be forced by the will of their people to accept Western goods...see Russia and China. These goods lead to better education, standard of living and fuel materialism that supports individualism. Which leads to friendly relationships with nations that have respect for individual and property rights.

Homework time:
You, Will, need to understand this concept:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=american+empire&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4109641392701717362&sa=X&ei=QRciT5uVGKjZ0QHmxYyBCQ&ved=0CKQBEPMCMBE

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Hubris-West-Losing-Terror/dp/1574888498


http://www.thenation.com/article/156851/decline-and-fall-american-empire

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-rise-and-certain-fall-of-the-american-empire-2010-03-09
http://www.fff.org/comment/com1110s.asp
From 2002:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0426/p11s01-coop.html
http://americanempireproject.com/

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Will C.
01/27/2012 12:04am

Your 'examples' fail to hold water in the pail of common-sense. Cuba never feared the United States because it was backed by a Super Power of it's own (now it merely 'fears' economic embargoes), the force-on-force dynamic isn't congruent with the coercion of smaller states empires typically employ. Iran constantly threatens the United States in a very real, very public manner, demanding some type of response - again, in-congruent with the traditional 'trumped up threat' card an empire will play in order to deploy military forces, Iran's leadership has made very clear their intentions (brush off their intentions and pay the price, as did Europe in the '40s). Toss North Korea in the same pail as Iran. Iraq was far less of a threat than either of Iran or North Korea, and is the only country you listed where the 'empire' label could stick - except for the fact that none of the other crucial elements are present: There is no mercantile system in place to exploit natural resources or labor, no system of political control exerted over the Iraqi government, and no clear benefit for our having been there since had that been our original intent we wouldn't have simply pulled out very recently.

Again, with each example you cite, you merely strengthen my case. Overthrowing dictators (I assume you're referring here to Gaddafi but I'll use him in an example furthering my case here shortly), promoting democracy, and building bridges are all examples of exactly what not to do if you're attempting to build an empire. Rule by proxy, which is what an empire would do, necessitates you maintain power with a central figure that's sympathetic to your cause. Replacing a dictator with an unfriendly, democratically elected government fails to meet that criteria. In fact, allowing that type of self-governance only sets the stage for your eventual withdrawal - which is again, not something empires do once they've conquered a territory. As far as building bridges, that is exactly the opposite of exploiting resources or labor - instead of capital flowing into the empire, it's working in reverse, flowing out of the empire. This is the only area you make a valid point - that the U.S. should abandon such military ventures because it's bankrupting the nation; however, were the U.S. an empire, it would actually be doing the opposite by enriching itself at the expense of its colonies. So, once again, a perfect Counterargument to the accusation that the U.S. is a modern empire.

Now, lets look at what happened to Gaddafi and how it benefits the U.S., or how it benefits our supposed 'allies' - nations in which, incidentally, we station all of those troops. Military venture where the U.S. & Co. played the aggressors - check for 'empire.' Military venture where ground troops did not seize territory - check against. Unfriendly political faction replaced - check for empire. Unfriendly political faction replaces unfriendly political faction - check against. What else is there? Economics. Who receives the vast majority of their oil from Libya? The U.S.?... Think again. Two of the major players in the coalition attacking Libya, France and Germany, bought up at least one quarter of Libya's oil. The United States? Three percent (1). Now, who did the heavy lifting? The United States (2). But wait - that makes no sense... Unless you think about it in the terms I've already described. Once again, the U.S. shows why it's not an empire, and that it has few allies - at least few worth keeping - by demonstrating it does not interject itself into fights to further its empire (Why then? Ideology perhaps; that's another debate). Further, it simply provides greater justification to my third point, above - our 'allies' don't need to invest in their own military (as clearly demonstrated by lacking the ability to simply bomb a country with a third-rate military) if we do it for them.

Foreign aid not a good measure of a caring nation? Really? Last year, the U.S. gave approximately $40bil USD in foreign aid. Roughly 25% of that was for security-related assistance, 25% for health, education, and social welfare programs, 10% for governance programs, 12% for economic growth activities, and 12% for humanitarian assistance (3). What, exactly, about those numbers seems hegemonic to you? Were that our sole concern we'd simply give to states that could be considered our proxies, instead of handing out massive amounts of cash to states where we see no real benefit (such as Haiti) or even worse, may work against us (such as Egypt). That then begs the question: Why give? Certainly, the military-industrial complex (which is a legitimate concern in all of this) benefits from our overseas ventures and through some of the foreign aid, but if they were the 'big push' behind these programs why not direct more than a quarter - the same amount given to health and human services - to security assistance? It simply does not add up. (Note that I do not approve of the vast majority of f

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Will C.
01/27/2012 12:05am

(Note that I do not approve of the vast majority of foreign aid; however, if we're to use it as a measure of empathy versus empire-building, it simply doesn't weight the latter argument)

I agree that the average American does not feel the sting of war, and is therefore ill-equipped to gauge its true nature and the harm it can do to the lives of those involved. I also agree that waging unjustified wars indicates recklessness and carelessness. I do not agree that the average American citizen lacks empathy, however. Were that the case, we'd simply have slaughtered our way to total victory in either conflict (Afghanistan and Iraq), acting more like an 'empire' than a force concerned with 'hearts and minds' - and we clearly have not done that (though, perhaps we should have; again, a different debate). In fact, the extreme care U.S. forces take not to upset the local population, and the political backlash that occurs as a result of any infraction upon the mostly-ridiculous rules of engagement that exist in the current conflicts, speak contrary to the average citizen lacking empathy. Indeed, they empathize too much, and handicap our men and women in uniform as a result. This is the true cost of failing to wage declared wars: that the we become mired in poorly understood conflicts where our citizenry lack the will to force the conflict to a decisive solution (incidentally, this matches point one, above).

While I may disagree with some of your conclusions, I agree with you in the end, that we shouldn't concern ourselves with nations without the ability to harm us (though we should concern ourselves with nations that consistently threaten us, and Iran fits the bill), that we shouldn't be involved in entangling alliances (though I also agree the U.K./Australia should receive privileged status given their commitments to our ongoing war), that American businessmen and women should be let loose to truly change the world (if that is what we ever intended), and that it does a disservice to U.S. servicemen and women to fight any war that isn't wholly justified. I just wish you wouldn't throw the term 'empire' around like it means something that applies to the U.S. - because it so clearly doesn't, and in so clearly misrepresenting the true reasons not to become involved in ill-advised foreign wars, we'll never know the end of them.


1. To make it easy, scroll down to page 4. <http://www.eia.gov/cabs/libya/pdf.pdf>

2. You already know this - it's for the advantage of our readers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/22/world/africa/nato-war-in-libya-shows-united-states-was-vital-to-toppling-qaddafi.html

3. Simply skip to page one, paragraph 2. <http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/R40213_20110210.pdf>

Gabe
02/01/2012 7:41pm

One of you is talking about imperialism that stemmed from interventionism and resulted in empire. The advancing the same rhetoric the pro-imperialists made to take over Philippines, Guam, Haiti, Panama, Colombia, Cuba, and Puerto Rico. All of which provided the United States with the economic power it wanted. Now if you look back in history and now, all of those situations were win-win for United States, while the citizens of that country were forced to provide economic wealth for the United States and its businessmen.

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Gabe
02/01/2012 7:43pm

*The second sentence above should start: The other is advancing....


And all the while Pro-Imperialists claimed that it was for the good of those being taken over, even though almost all opposed it.

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Will C.
02/02/2012 1:09am

With the exception of Panama, which the U.S. has since returned to complete sovereignty, "we" haven''t gained much - if anything, we've lost quite a bit - from the possessions you mentioned, none of which are States, two of which are sovereign territories, and five of which we no longer have any hand in ruling. That example, like the others, fails to hold water. The U.S. isn't, and never has been, an 'empire,' and use of that term only detracts from the actual arguments against intervening in foreign wars.

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